Depeche Mode

‘I want people to know that I’m still out here, fighting the good fight’

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Picture of P.P. Arnold by Gered Mankowitz

This month sees the release of a new live album by ’60s soul singer and mod icon, P.P. Arnold.

Live In Liverpool was recorded in 2019 at Grand Central Hall, on the tour for her album The New Adventures of… P.P. Arnold, which she made with Steve Cradock (Paul Weller and Ocean Colour Scene guitarist) at the helm.

It features versions of her hit singles, The First Cut Is The Deepest and Angel Of The Morning, as well as songs from 2017’s The Turning Tide and The New Adventures of… P.P. Arnold, which followed two years later.

Other tracks on Live In Liverpool include I Believe and Hold On To Your Dreams, which were both co-written with her son, musician Kojo Samuel, as well as Weller’s Shoot The Dove, covers of The Beatles’ Eleanor Rigby and The Beach Boys’ God Only Knows, and Magic Hour by Cradock.

Arnold, who turned 78 earlier this month, was born in L.A, and was one of Ike & Tina Turner’s singing and dancing troupe, The Ikettes, before she moved to Britain in 1966, where she launched a solo career that’s lasted almost 60 years.

She’s worked with acts including Mick Jagger, Rod Stewart, The Small Faces, Eric Clapton, Nick Drake, Barry Gibb, Peter Gabriel, Roger Waters, Primal Scream, Ocean Colour Scene and Paul Weller.

Early next year, her career will be celebrated with a new 3-CD box set, which will include rarities and unreleased material.

In an exclusive interview, Arnold talks to Say It With Garage Flowers about Live In Liverpool, collaborating with Cradock and Weller, her ‘lost years’ in the ’70s, the new box set, and appearing as the animated character, Cleo Nibbles – the Soul Mouse, on CBeebies show Yukee earlier this year.

“I just want to do as much as I can while I can,” she tells us.

Q&A

Before we start chatting about the new record, I just want to say that I’m not sure if I should call you P.P. or Cleo Nibbles – the Soul Mouse…

P.P. Arnold (Laughs): She’s a darling, isn’t she?

How did the opportunity to voice a cartoon character come about and was it fun to do?

P.P. Arnold: It was big fun! They contacted me, we did it and it’s really great. I love it, and I told them, ‘I’ll do a Cleo Nibbles album!’ I would love to do it for the kids.

Cleo Nibbles, the Soul Mouse, from BBC children’s show Yukee – voiced by P.P. Arnold: picture courtesy of the BBC

Was that your first time doing voiceover work?

P.P. Arnold: I used to do loads of jingles and stuff, but it was the first time I’d done a voiceover like that. I like doing things that I’ve never done before.

Let’s talk about your new album, Live In Liverpool, which was recorded in October 2019 at Grand Central Hall, on the tour for your album The New Adventures of… P.P. Arnold. What was special about that show that made you decide to put it out as a live album?

P.P. Arnold: It was just a great gig, and it was in Liverpool, at a great venue… We recorded quite a few gigs, but that particular one was the last night of the tour, and it was just a great night… It was a solid show and it just worked.

How was it touring that album, which has a big production, with rich arrangements? You had an eight-piece band on the road with you…

P.P. Arnold: I was lucky because I had Steve Cradock batting for me – he dealt with the musical direction, and the musicians were all guys he knew – Andy Flynn [bass, guitar] was from the Steve Cradock Band. Tony Coote played drums on the album, so he knew what to do. I’d been touring with those guys previously, promoting The Turning Tide album, so we all knew each other. Steve and I have been working together for quite some time.

‘I always believe that Steve Marriott had something to do with bringing Steve Cradock and I together, spiritually’

You first met him in the ’90s, didn’t you? 

P.P. Arnold: I remember it like it was yesterday. I was on the road doing theatre – the musical Once On This Island, which won an Olivier Award. Steve came to see me at the last show, which was in Birmingham – he showed up with flowers and introduced himself. They [Ocean Colour Scene] wanted me to go to the studio that night, but I was going back to London. So, after that, we hooked up when we did the tribute album for The Small Faces [Long Agos and Worlds Apart –1997].

What’s the chemistry that you have with Steve? Why does your relationship work?

P.P. Arnold: I always believe that Steve Marriott had something to do with bringing us together, spiritually – we both love Steve and he is in that mix… Steve [Cradock] and Sally [his wife] are like my babies – I sang at their wedding. It’s a family affair with us.

When I was working with Ocean Colour Scene, they were very young. Steve’s dad, Chris, didn’t quite get me – I was doing Reiki and stuff, because I was trying to put protection around everyone. He thought I was a bit of a witch or something… I was into nutrition and regeneration – my spirit is really strong – but I was going out on the road with these kids, and you know what they were doing back then… That had all been in my past… Anyway, it’s all cool now.

 

Let’s talk about some of the songs on Live In Liverpool. Baby Blue, which is on The New Adventures of… P.P. Arnold, was written by Steve Cradock and Steve Grizzell. Was it written for you?

P.P. Arnold: No – Steve [Cradock] brought it to the table. He had a relationship with Steve Grizzell. When he first presented me with the song, I didn’t think it was good for me – I thought it was too pop. I didn’t really get the lyric until I found out what the song was all about it – I like to know that… I like to know what I’m singing about, because, for me, it’s all about expression and telling the story.

When I spoke to Steve Grizzell, he told me that the song was about a young girl who had become pregnant and her parents made her give her baby away, so that was why she was ‘baby blue.’ Wow – then it hit me hard, because it was close to an experience I had had as a young girl, becoming pregnant. It was different, because she had to give her child away, but it was about the whole teen pregnancy thing and how it affects a young girl’s life.

She became a goth – the lyric says: ‘You should be standing out in peacock feathers like you used to do before you were baby blue.’ Once I got the story, I loved the song.

Musically, it has an authentic, late ’60s pop-soul feel…

P.P. Arnold: Exactly – Steve Cradock loves all that about me, that I’m authentic and from the ’60s, but still here and able to do that.

There’s a version of Everything’s Gonna Be Alright on the new live album. That song, which was originally released in 1967, has become a Northern Soul classic, hasn’t it? 

P.P. Arnold: It was my first single and it did absolutely nothing. I missed that whole Northern Soul thing because I wasn’t here [in England] in the ’70s. I came back in the ’80s and that record was being sold for £100 and I thought, ‘Wow!’ That got me chasing my royalties…

I never used to sing it because I thought it was a bit twee at the time – I’d come from the States and being an Ikette… I wasn’t even sure about who P.P. Arnold was… Even though I was a soul singer, all my music was produced by English producers, so it wasn’t like Motown soul or Stax soul… I created that sort of pop-soul fusion…

You had that late ’60s London sound… 

P.P. Arnold: Everything about me was British production… When I went back home to the States [in the ’70s] nobody was into what I was doing, but when I worked with Eric Clapton, he produced my roots and gospel sound and got more of a funky thing. But a lot of people didn’t get that because in the States it was what I called the ‘hot lick syndrome’ – everyone was trying to sound like Chaka Khan, and it was a modern gospel sound, so everyone thought what I was doing as a black American singer was lame.

Picture by Gered Mankowitz

A lot of people still don’t get my sound because it’s more old-school gospel and soul-based. My thing is about singing songs – it’s not about ‘licking’ all over the place.

I can do that, but I have more of a melodic sound in the way in which I express a song. I’ve got my own lane – this is me, I’m P.P. Arnold and I have a distinctive sound.

‘A lot of people still don’t get my sound because it’s more old-school gospel and soul-based’

There’s a great and very powerful version of (If You Think You’re) Groovy on the live album. That song was written for you by Steve Marriott and Ronnie Lane from The Small Faces…

P.P. Arnold: Absolutely – they first wrote Afterglow for me, but they kept it back and gave me (If You Think You’re) Groovy… I’ve done some versions of Afterglow but I haven’t released any of them because of all the politics with the publishing and his family not getting the rights. I know Steve would be pissed off about what’s happened with that. I’ve stayed out of it, but recently Steve [Cradock] and I did a really beautiful acoustic version of I’m Only Dreaming [Small Faces song] that’s going on the box set I’ve got coming out. I didn’t want to put it on there, but it’s such a lovely version.

When’s the box set being released?

P.P. Arnold: February. There should be pre-orders around Christmas time. It will have unreleased and rare stuff on it, including the tracks I did with Chaz Jankel, which were never released. The stuff I did with Dr. Robert is on there…

I love the 2007 album you made with him: Five in the Afternoon…

P.P. Arnold: It’s a great record, but the label it was on shut down and it never got the exposure.

Let’s go back to the live album…You co-wrote I Believe, which is on it, with your son, Kojo…

P.P. Arnold: Yeah, And Hold On To Your Dreams, which was the first single. When I did Burn It Up with The Beatmasters, I was the only live thing on the record, but I was the only one who couldn’t get a record deal… I was being really revolutionary about it, and after that I recorded a track called Dynamite – that’s going to be on the box set. I did it with Kenny Moore, who was Tina Turner’s keyboard player, and The Beatmasters produced it.

I needed to get my shit together, so I had a 16-track setup at my house that Kojo was cutting his production teeth on – he produced his momma. So, we did those tracks [I Believe and Hold On To Your Dreams] and I was trying to get a deal with them – and we did them in a real dance format, but we couldn’t get a record deal.

I didn’t want him, as a young man, to have to be going through my struggle and disappointments – the ageism thing was being laid on me – because he was doing some great work… Steve [Cradock] heard those tracks, and we decided to do them, and they’re great.

I Believe has a ’70s disco feel, and is very spiritual – it’s a positive song…

P.P. Arnold – Both of those songs are very spiritual. You said I Believe has a ’70s thing on it – that’s cool, because I was feeling Stevie Wonder – that kind of groove. Kojo and I wrote those songs together – he laid the tracks down, and I had the lyrics… He’s great – I’d love to be working with him now, but he don’t have time for me!

Medicated Goo, from The Turning Tide, is on the live album – it’s a great version. That’s a big song when you play it in concert… 

P.P. Arnold: It is, and I make sure that everyone knows that the ‘medicated goo’ is a healer… It’s not just about getting high…

I really like your version of the beautiful Sandy Denny song, I’m A Dreamer, which you recorded for The New Adventures Of… P.P. Arnold, and is also on the live album. She was such a great singer and songwriter. Did you ever meet her?

P.P. Arnold: I didn’t get to meet her, because during the ’70s, I’d gone back to America, and I’m still coming back from that period…

You call that time in the ’70s ‘the lost years…’ 

P.P. Arnold: Yeah – the lost years… Had my stuff from then been released at the time – the Barry Gibb tracks, The Turning Tide and the Eric Clapton productions – it would’ve been a whole other story…

Talking about Sandy Denny, who was part of the ’60s and ’70s English folk scene, you and Doris Troy sang backing vocals on Nick Drake’s Poor Boy, from his 1971 album, Bryter Layter. Do you have any memories of that session?

P.P. Arnold: Yeah, I remember Doris Troy calling me and saying, ‘Hey, baby, what you doing tonight? Do you want to come and do a session with me?

We went to Fulham [Sound Techniques studio, Chelsea] with the producer, Joe Boyd… It was another session, y’know… but there was a vibe that night with him [Nick Drake] – he was very reserved and quiet… a very shy guy.

We worked with him quite closely, and he explained what he wanted us to do, and what the song was about. We just gave him what he wanted. As I talk about it, I’m getting chills… It was a lovely evening, working with a really nice guy.

At the time, I didn’t really know who he was, and I didn’t find out about that track until I came back in the ’80s.

Paul Weller is a big Nick Drake fan, and you’ve worked with Paul…You sing his song Shoot The Dove on Live In Liverpool… How’s Paul to work with? 

P.P. Arnold: I love Paul – he has been so supportive. When Steve Cradock and I were doing  The New Adventures… I told him about the tracks [from The Turning Tide] that I’d finally got the licence for and that I needed somewhere to mix them. Paul and Steve let me mix them at Black Barn. I met him in the ’90s, when I was doing stuff with Ocean Colour Scene, and I went to a couple of his shows. He’s lovely, and he gave me Shoot The Dove and When I Was Part of Your Picture.  

There’s a lovely moment on the live album where you sing Eleanor Rigby, in Liverpool, and you tell the crowd it’s one of your favourite songs by The Beatles. I really like your version of it, with the church-like organ on it… 

P.P. Arnold: Yeah – that whole Hammond vibe…

You recorded Eleanor Rigby on your second album, Kafunta, which came out in 1968. Did you meet The Beatles?

P.P. Arnold: I’ve met Paul a couple of times – we once met in Harrods, doing Christmas shopping –  but I didn’t know John or Ringo. I met George, because we did the Delaney & Bonnie tour together. We had to go over the Channel in a boat – I shared a cabin with Lesley Duncan, George and Billy Preston. Billy was a gentleman – such a beautiful guy. I knew he was gay, so he wouldn’t be jumping on my bones!

I knew him from church – when I was 12 years old, me and my sister were in a gospel group that sang at Billy’s church. He also used to hang out with Ike and Tina Turner.

On Kafunta, you recorded songs by The Beatles, The Beach Boys and The Rolling Stones. Was that your decision, or was it down to your producer, Andrew Loog Oldham?

P.P. Arnold: Andrew had a vision and great ideas, but I was never forced to sing anything. If I didn’t like a song, I didn’t have to sing it. I didn’t have confidence in myself as an artist. I never came into the industry saying, ‘I’m an artist and I want to do this, or I want to do that…’ That’s why I got lost in the ’70s, because the universe had always put me with people who knew what they were doing.

‘I just want to do as much as I can while I can, and if it’s possible to move onwards and upwards, instead of going round in circles, that’s what I want to be doing’

There’s a nice live version of Life Is But Nothing, which was on your first album, The First Lady of Immediate, on the new record. You’d never sung that live before, had you?

P.P. Arnold: I’d never sung it… Steve Cradock insisted I sing it, and now I sing it all the time.

The live album ends with The First Cut Is The Deepest, which was the song that kick-started your career. You had a hit with it in 1967. It was written by Cat Stevens and you recently sang it on stage with him…

P.P. Arnold: I did – in Henley. That was great. It was the first time I’d seen him since 2007, which was the first time I’d seen him since 1968! The concert was for Mike Hurst, who produced The First Cut Is The Deepest, as he has Parkinson’s – it was a fundraiser for charity.  

‘I’m making another record –  I’m doing a duet with Paul Weller and I think I’m going to do some more stuff with Steve Cradock’

After Everything Is Gonna Be Alright didn’t happen, I really needed a hit if I was going to stay here. My kids were with my mum [in the US], and she gave me six months to make it work, but Mike brought that great song to the table, and it’s the story of my life. It was as if the song had been written for me.

Any plans for a new studio album?

P.P. Arnold: Oh, I’m making another record. I’ve finished a track called I Know We’ll Get There, and I’m doing a duet with Paul Weller. I heard from him yesterday, when he was in the States… It’s just about [having the] time – when can we do it? Paul’s got a lot going on, and I haven’t got a label behind me, driving things… Anyway, he’s cool and we’re staying in touch about it – divine order will make it happen.

Steve Marriott will make it happen…

P.P. Arnold: Yeah – he’ll make it happen, and I think I’m going to do some more stuff with Steve Cradock that will go on the album.

You’ve had to deal with tragedies, difficulties and a lot of bad luck in your life, but you’re always such a positive person. I’ve met and interviewed you a few times and I find you inspirational – you always cheer me up and you have an aura…

‘I just want to do as much as I can while I can, and if it’s possible to move onwards and upwards, instead of going round in circles, that’s what I want to be doing’

P.P. Arnold: Thank you. I’m pure energy. There’s no way I could do it without it. I can’t mess around with my vocals, so I’ve never really been into drinking a whole lot, as it dehydrates me and affects my voice. I love to sing. There’s other stuff you do when you’re young and you’re growing up… I couldn’t be doing what I’m doing and looking like I’m looking if I was doing that stuff…

You look great… 

P.P. Arnold: Well, thank you. I’ve invested in my health and fitness. Hey, man, how long that’s going to be going on, I don’t know… What I do know is that I just want to do as much as I can while I can, and if it’s possible to move onwards and upwards, instead of going round in circles, that’s what I want to be doing. I want people to know that I’m still out here, fighting the good fight.

Live In Liverpool is released on October 18 (Ear Music).

A new 56-track, 3-CD P.P. Arnold box set will be released by the Demon Music Group early next year.

For P.P. Arnold UK tour dates this autumn/winter, visit https://pparnold.com/tours-gigs.

 

‘I’m not a fan of very emotional singing. It’s more interesting to have a robot sing a heartfelt melody’

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Usually found hiding behind a pair of dark glasses, Doviak is the mysterious and ice-cool multi-instrumentalist and producer who is best known for his work with Johnny Marr – he plays guitar and keys in Marr’s band and has co-produced the former Smiths guitarist’s four solo albums: The Messenger, Playland, Call The Comet and Fever Dream Pts 1-4.

In the past few years, Doviak, who is based in Manchester, has been releasing his atmospheric and often cinematic, electronic-heavy solo songs on digital platforms, as individual tracks or EPs. His music is inspired by ’80s synth-pop, electro, Cold War espionage – on his social media profile he calls himself cyberspace’s foremost purveyor of ‘Spywave’ – European travel, John Barry and gothic rock.

Say It With Garage Flowers had a clandestine meeting with him to discuss his solo work, his thoughts on new tech such as AI and immersive audio, working with Marr and why decentralised collaborations might be the way forward.

This interview will self-destruct in 10 seconds…

Q&A

Let’s talk about your most recent solo release –  The Vanguard EP.  It doesn’t sound as spywave as some of your previous material… 

Doviak: In my head it is, but in reality it’s not.

One of the tracks, Turn It Over, has a pulsing, ’80s electronic feel – it’s like Howard Jones… 

Doviak: Yeah – there’s all sorts of stuff referenced. Sometimes I’ll be playing around with a riff and it happens to be electronic and I’ll just go with that. I might try and make it something that you might even hear on the radio…

With a pop sensibility….

Doviak: That’s the idea. It’s fun doing all these mysterious tracks, but if nobody listens to them, it’s a bit demoralising. That’s not to say I’m doing things just to get radio play, because that doesn’t really work either. I like pop. To me, Turn It Over is trying to be an intellectual version of a really crass pop track. All of the lyrics in 90 percent of pop stuff are silly – that’s what they’re meant to be and that’s why they sell, but if you like lyrics, they’re not very engaging. I like the idea of having that production but with something more quirky.

‘Turn It Over is trying to be an intellectual version of a really crass pop track. All of the lyrics in 90 percent of pop stuff are silly’

 

The Courtyard, which is on the EP, is darker and a much more cinematic track…

Doviak: It’s an electro-goth thing.

It reminds me of Depeche Mode…

Doviak: That comparison comes up a lot – people always say it. The funny thing about that is I never listen to Depeche Mode – I hardly know any of their stuff, but that’s what it’s supposed to be like – dark, low vocals, and moody with goth reverb.

There’s a song on the EP called Price of a Soul – I’m surprised Depeche Mode haven’t written a song called that…

Doviak: Yeah – trying to find any title that some fucker hasn’t used is almost impossible.

Wait For The World is an anthemic ballad – it has synths on it, but is more guitary and less electronic than some of your other songs…

Doviak: That’s right – the song dictated it. With some songs, there is a core tune – with melody, lyrics and chords – that you could play on an acoustic guitar, and it works in its own right, but with others, the production is so integral that it wouldn’t be much good on one. With Wait For The World I thought it was better to follow slightly more traditional instrumentation than a heavily electronic one – it just seemed to work better that way. It’s a really old song – about 10 years old. I just had to get it out eventually.

Would you say the EP is themed?

Doviak: Only because it’s electronic, but, also, because, in my head, the lyrics are about people’s relationship with the internet, social media and new tech. It’s this thing that’s been foisted upon us  – this revolution – and we’re learning how to navigate this world.

Are you a fan of AI in music?

Doviak: I’m not a fan of it but I recognise the fact that it’s not going to go away and its presence is only ever going to increase. It’s like better than the devil you know…

That’s a Kylie song…

Doviak: (laughs) Exactly – that’s a good reference… If AI is a tool that you can leverage to improve what you’re doing and make it more interesting then why not? I don’t think you should get rid of the human element, but some aspects of it will disappear. There will always be people who want that human element – I think that’s fundamentally why people like music. Anthropologists argue that singing is like bird song – it’s a way to show your sexual proclivity.

 ‘I’m not a fan of AI but I recognise the fact that it’s not going to go away and its presence is only ever going to increase’

Maybe singing evolved before language, but I’m not saying that’s the case… There’s an emotional element that connects with you for some reason – some people like certain genres – but some of it is more instinctive. That will always be there, but some people don’t really care about music – it’s just a thing in the background. They’re not going to care if it’s AI music playing in a coffee shop, but there are a hardcore group who will and they like real people… Some elements of pop aren’t just about the music – you’re buying into the personality and the imagery as well…

I have no problem if you run an AI music program and you get an idea from it. If the whole thing sounds great and you want to put it out, whatever, but I think it will be a long time before that happens frequently.

What are your views on Dolby Atmos and immersive audio? Some producers see it as a gimmick – do the possibilities interest you?

Doviak: It is gimmicky but, again, it’s another thing that will be around… I don’t know if you know this, but Apple Music prioritise your stuff in their store if you have Dolby Atmos mixes…

Because they want to sell headphones…

Doviak: Yeah. It not’s a bad thing, but I don’t think it’s particularly necessary.  Look at how must people consume music – 70 percent of it is through a tiny, tinny speaker on their phone. Some people have amazing systems to sit and listen to, which is great, but that’s the minority…
I’m not against it, but it’s time, and how much time do you want to dedicate to learning how to mix in Atmos? If someone wants to mix it for me, great… I might look into it at some point, but it’s not a priority. I’m not against it.

You worked on a recent track called Ghost In The Room with a group called Moontalkers. How did that come about?

Doviak: It was straightforward – they just got in touch out of the blue and asked if I’d be interested. It seemed like fun and it was great to just do vocals on something rather than having to produce all the music too. Plus it’s interesting and fun to be working with younger musicians.

Your song Venus Eye Honeytrap was inspired by the story of Mata Hari, wasn’t it?

Doviak: Yes – that’s right, but the lyrics have their own subtext. I think she was accused of being a spy, but I don’t think she was probably. The song was actually more inspired by noodling around, but the overall aesthetic of it is just a distillation of the things I like – The Horrors and any slightly dark, gothic band, but I don’t like to stray into true gothic territory – it has more of a rock element.

It sounds like Gary Numan doing a theme song for a spy film…

Doviak: I think that’s a good description.

Your singing voice reminds me of Numan at times…

Doviak: On certain songs, it’s a deliberate choice to get more robotic than soulful. If I get the melody right and I have a very emotive piece of music with a tune that’s quite sweet, I want to upset that with something that’s a bit colder and dispassionate – to me it’s the right side of melodrama, because I’m not a big fan of very emotional and heartfelt singing generally. Sometimes it’s amazing, but it can get on your nerves a little bit… it just isn’t my thing. For me, it’s more interesting to have a robot sing a heartfelt melody.

Which is essentially what Kraftwerk did…

Doviak: Sure.

‘If I get the melody right and I have a very emotive piece of music with a tune that’s quite sweet, I want to upset that with something that’s a bit colder and dispassionate’

Alicia Vigil of L.A. rock band Vigil of War guests on Venus Eye Honeytrap. How did that come about?

Doviak: She’s a friend of a friend, who I worked with. I was in town, and we did some writing – we kicked around some ideas. Whether anything will see the light of day, I’ve no idea, but it was fun. I don’t do much writing [with other people] outside of my work with Johnny. I’ve done production and mixing, but not a great deal of writing.

Would you like to do more?

Doviak: Yes – that’s what I enjoy the most. The production and the writing are kind of tied together to some degree… I like it a lot more than mixing and engineering, which I don’t really enjoy. They all have positives and negatives, but the thing I really like is writing – it excites me the most by far.

There is an underlying Cold War theme to a lot of your solo music and it’s very cinematic. Have you written soundtracks? I know you’ve been involved with music for adverts…

Doviak:  Yeah – I have done, but not for a while. I’ve been too busy – there was a point where I was doing The Messenger album with Johnny and touring… We had a lot of production stuff to work out, because it was the first time we’d really gone out, and I was doing a lot of work for TV adverts. It started to take off, but I had to make a choice, so I did the live thing because it was more fun, and I got to see the world, play gigs and work with Johnny, which was great. I tried to do both for a little bit, but it wasn’t really happening – something was going to suffer…

Would you like to do film soundtracks? Some of the tracks you’ve done with Johnny, like Walk Into The Sea and Rubicon, are more like soundscapes than traditional rock or pop songs, aren’t they?

Doviak: Absolutely – that’s right. I like to have some sort of balance – if I was going to see a gig, what songs would I want it to contain? It’s nice to have a general thread of something running through it. Sometimes you want to hear a couple of up-tempo, catchy, straightforward songs with choruses, but then you might want a lull with some emotive stuff. Not everyone wants that – a lot of the audiences respond better to the up-tempo, catchy singles and they jump around and sing the lyrics – but I think they’re also impressed by the soundtracky stuff, and the people that like it really like it.

Where does your love of the Cold War come from?

Doviak: Probably from watching films. It’s not something I’ve always been into. I had a whole bunch of songs kicking around for many years, but with no real defining element to them, but at some point I thought it would be fun to do something John Barryesque – I’d liked Portishead and the idea of doing melodramatic orchestration. There are particular harmonies that are unique to that genre – there’s an element of melancholy. It’s not so much sadness, but more of a bleak melancholy…

Like Barry’s soundtrack to The Ipcress File…

Doviak: Exactly.

Johnny and the band used to walk on stage to the theme from The Persuaders…

Doviak: We did actually – that’s right. It’s a good piece of music.

Did you write your Enemy Numbers EP while you were travelling around Europe?

Doviak: Exactly – the impetus came from different places, and I liked the idea… If I’d had the budget, I could have done themed videos for the cities they were related to – Berlin, Paris, Hamburg, Prague… I had some brief ideas while I was on the road, but I didn’t have the time to expand on them until I got home. The emotion still remains – a set of chords and a simple melody, but that’s enough and it’s something to build on. If it’s the right thing, it sparks my imagination, and I can go back and build on it with that in mind. I’m lucky to be able to travel, and it’s a great way of doing it.

I see so many cities and I got to thinking what would it be like if you were a guy listening to a shortwave radio by yourself, in a room at night, with a different identity – it could be a strange, lonely experience. That’s why there’s a sadness to the music – slightly bleak and melancholy, but without being overly melodramatic.

Did you write Century in Montmartre, Paris?

Doviak: Yes – the chords and the basic tune. The idea is that there’s some guy in a room by himself, feeling melancholy and looking over the rooftops of Paris. It’s particularly scenic round there.

Do you have a home studio?

Doviak: Yes – it’s basic, but it’s enough for me to do what I need to do.

So, you record all your solo stuff there?

Doviak: Yeah, but Jack [Mitchell – Johnny Marr’s drummer] played on a couple of the early songs, Solid State Machines and Enemy Numbers, so we recorded his drums elsewhere. I’d do that again, but it hasn’t been convenient and for some of the recent songs it hasn’t really been necessary.

Do you have a big collection of vintage gear, like old synths?

Doviak: Not as big as I’d like – one of the reasons is because I have to travel so much and the other is because software is getting so good. Some of it sounds as good as the real thing – certainly by the time you’ve done various things to it production-wise and put it in the mix. We have a whole bunch of stuff in Johnny’s studio – a Juno, a Moog, a Yamaha SS30…

Johnny explored electronic music with Bernard Sumner in Electronic and then when he had his band The Healers he went back to more traditional rock, blues and psychedelic stuff. Do you think working with you on his solo records has made him experiment with more electronic sounds again?

Doviak: With the more electronic tracks like Spirit, Power and Soul, and Armatopia, that’s what he wanted to do – he already had those ideas. There may be one or two songs where I’ve said, ‘You could put a dirty Juno bass on there…’ or something. I can’t remember – he remembers that stuff brilliantly.

You’ve been putting out your solo songs and EPs digitally. Any plans to make an album one day?

Doviak: Yes – it’s a nice way of tying tracks together thematically and having them all released at the same time. From a more cynical point of view, it’s also better for marketing, or so I’m told – it’s easier to get more people on your side, like the press, if you’ve got a product out. I’d like to do it but my time’s limited…

Apart from during Covid, you’ve been so busy with Johnny’s albums and touring…

I know… and during Covid we were writing the last album, which has 16 tracks on it. We wrote about 20. In an ideal world, I’d have a situation where I could bang each of my tracks down in six months to a year and do an album. I think it’s more consistent that way.

What’s the process like when you and Johnny work on tracks together? Does he give you demos or do you both come up with ideas in the studio and layer stuff up?

Doviak: It’s kind of a mixture – we might have ideas for a song and once we start working on it, it can take twists and turns and end up nothing like the original – in my mind, the music is 75 percent Johnny, something like that… I tend to do more of the drums, the bass and keyboard stuff.

‘What if you were a guy listening to a shortwave radio by yourself, in a room at night, with a different identity – it could be a strange, lonely experience. That’s why there’s a sadness to the music’

Have you got a lot of unreleased solo stuff?

Doviak: Yes, I have. I’ve always written and recorded, and it’s 80 percent ready to go. That final 20 percent is a killer sometimes – you have to mix it and master it, and that takes a lot of time. It’s very beneficial to have another pair of ears on it. When you’re doing everything yourself, you’re very close to the song and you can’t see the wood for the trees. That’s where collaboration comes in handy. If you’re in a band, you kick ideas around in a rehearsal room… The one thing I don’t like about writing by myself is that it’s quite isolating and boring – I like being with other people, talking and having a laugh while I’m working.

I really like your song Don’t Follow – it has ‘80s synths on it and electronic drums. It reminds me of Duran Duran when they did The Chauffeur, as well as Howard Jones and Ryuichi Sakamoto…

Doviak: That one’s had a good response – mainly because I think it’s more of an identifiable genre.

It could’ve come off the soundtrack to Drive…

Doviak: Exactly.

One of my favourite songs of yours is Russian Dolls – it’s very dramatic. Do you remember a ‘90s band called Rialto, who were influenced by John Barry and Ennio Morricone? It reminds me of them… 

Doviak: I remember the name…  I’d had the song knocking around for ages – the idea and a piano riff. It got tweaked over time – I struggled with the chorus – but it’s very John Barry / Ipcress File. It’s spywave, with almost Persuaders-like guitars.

Where did you grow up?

Doviak: In Cambridge.

There’s a spy connection there right away…

Doviak: Exactly.

Were you always in bands when you were young and how did you end up working with Johnny Marr?

Doviak: I was always in bands until I moved to Manchester, but I had a lot of friends in music, and I was involved with it. It’s a long story – I had a friend in a band in Manchester called Alpinestars, who said: ‘We’re going on tour – why don’t you come along just for a laugh?’ I worked as a guitar tech, which I’d never done. One of the guys in the band knew Johnny vaguely and we got in contact, met up and played some guitar – it went from there.

So, what are your plans for the rest of the year?

Doviak: I like the idea of working out a way of doing decentralised collaborations. I don’t even know what means yet, but it sounds good, and if you say the word ‘blockchain’ with it, people will probably think it’s interesting.  It’s if you have an idea and you put it out there online in some format – you could choose people to work with, or maybe anybody could do it and develop it in their own way.

And you’ll be doing another record with Johnny?

Doviak: Probably soon – he’s been crazy busy. It’s been nuts.

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For Johnny Marr tour dates and info, visit:  https://johnnymarr.com/